Edwin
Rutsch and
Kevin
Waldman discuss Kevin's article published in the Chicago Tribune and
other newspapers entitled,
"The dangerous consequences of radical empathy unchecked by reason."
Kevin criticizes "radical empathy" on campuses as performative and
harmful, emphasizing the need for genuine empathy that maintains critical
assessment and reason. Edwin introduces his Wholistic Empathy definition
model, which includes sensing into others' experiences, self-empathy,
imaginative empathy and the level of overall empathy within a community.
He advocates for making mutual empathy a primary social and political
values.
"As a researcher, I am now compelled
to ask: Can a society have
too much empathy?"
In the end, they agree on the importance of mutual
empathy, listening and dialogue in fostering understanding and reducing
extremism. Edwin proposes using empathy circles to facilitate empathic
listening and dialogue, aiming to bridge political and social divides.
Kevin plans to host Empathy Circles at his University to foster
constructive dialogue.
Edwin Rutsch and Kevin
Waldman discuss the complexities of empathy, particularly in the
context of ideological extremism and higher education. Waldman
criticizes "radical empathy" as performative and potentially harmful,
emphasizing the need for genuine empathy that maintains cognitive
distance and critical assessment. Rutsch introduces his
wholistic empathy model, which includes sensing into
others' experiences, self-empathy, and imaginative empathy. They agree
on the importance of empathy in fostering mutual understanding and
reducing extremism. Rutsch proposes using empathy circles to
facilitate empathic listening and dialogue, aiming to bridge political
and social divides.
Action Items
[ ] Organize an empathy
circle session at Northwestern University with Waldman's support.
[ ] Follow up with Waldman
to coordinate the empathy circle session and potential research
collaboration.
Outline
Introduction and Background
Edwin Rutsch introduces
himself as the director of the Empathy Center and mentions his focus
on empathy, ideological extremism, and social influence.
Kevin Waldman provides a
background on Edwin's work, including his recent opinion piece in
the Chicago Tribune titled "The dangerous consequences of radical
empathy unchecked by reason."
Edwin expresses his
agreement with the importance of empathy as a global prerequisite
for functioning society and introduces his research on empathy
manipulation and weaponization.
Kevin discusses his
research since 2023, focusing on how empathy is used by ideological
extremists to manipulate and weaponize human emotions.
Defining and Criticizing Empathy
Kevin explains his
criticism of performative empathy, which he believes is a Western
guilt situation used by extremists to infiltrate American society,
particularly in higher education.
Edwin and Kevin discuss
the confusion around the definition of empathy among academics and
the performative nature of empathy on college campuses.
Kevin introduces his
holistic empathy definition model, which includes sensing into
another person's experience, self-empathy, and imaginative empathy.
The conversation
highlights the difference between healthy empathy and radical
empathy, which demands total emotional identification and
ideological loyalty.
Empathy Circle and Mutual Understanding
Kevin describes the
holistic empathy model, emphasizing the mutuality of relationships
and the importance of active listening in empathy circles.
Edwin and Kevin discuss
the antidote to the victim-oppressor mindset and the role of empathy
in fostering critical analysis and mutual understanding.
Kevin shares his
experience of witnessing the weaponization of empathy in Dearborn,
Michigan, and the impact on American society.
The conversation explores
the performative nature of empathy on college campuses and the need
for genuine empathy and critical thinking.
Challenges of Empathy in Higher Education
Kevin discusses the
challenges of empathy in higher education, including the
performative behavior of students and the lack of critical analysis.
Edwin and Kevin agree on
the need for more open and honest discussions on college campuses to
foster empathy and mutual understanding.
The conversation
highlights the impact of performative empathy on students' social
lives and relationships, leading to dishonesty and mistrust.
Kevin emphasizes the
importance of empathy circles in fostering genuine empathy and
mutual understanding among students and faculty.
Empathy and Political Divides
Edwin and Kevin discuss
the role of empathy in bridging political and social divides,
including the need for empathy circles among political leaders.
Kevin shares his
experience of using empathy circles to bring people together during
political demonstrations and the positive impact of empathic
listening.
The conversation explores
the challenges of fostering empathy in a polarized political
environment and the need for empathy training in educational
institutions.
Edwin and Kevin agree on
the importance of empathy in promoting mutual understanding and
reducing conflict in society.
Empathy and Mental Health
Kevin discusses the impact
of performative empathy on mental health, including the stress and
frustration it causes among students and faculty.
Edwin and Kevin agree on
the need for empathy training in mental health programs to foster
empathic listening and mutual understanding.
The conversation
highlights the importance of empathy in improving mental health and
reducing stress and anxiety among students.
Kevin shares his
experience of using empathy circles to support mental health and
promote empathic listening in therapeutic settings.
Empathy and Cultural Values
Edwin and Kevin discuss
the need for empathy to be a primary cultural value in society,
fostering mutual understanding and reducing conflict.
Kevin shares his vision of
an empathy movement to promote empathy as a core cultural value and
the challenges of achieving this goal.
The conversation explores
the role of empathy in promoting cultural diversity and
understanding, including the need for empathy training in
educational institutions.
Edwin and Kevin agree on
the importance of empathy in fostering a more empathic and inclusive
society.
Empathy and Social Change
Kevin discusses the
potential of empathy to drive social change and promote mutual
understanding and cooperation.
Edwin and Kevin agree on
the need for empathy training in educational institutions and the
role of empathy in promoting social change.
The conversation
highlights the challenges of fostering empathy in a polarized
society and the importance of empathy in promoting social cohesion
and understanding.
Kevin shares his vision of
an empathy movement to promote empathy as a core cultural value and
the potential impact of empathy on social change.
Empathy and Personal Relationships
Edwin and Kevin discuss
the impact of empathy on personal relationships, including the
importance of empathic listening in fostering mutual understanding.
Kevin shares his
experience of using empathy circles to improve personal
relationships and promote empathic listening.
The conversation
highlights the challenges of fostering empathy in personal
relationships and the importance of empathy training in promoting
mutual understanding.
Edwin and Kevin agree on
the need for empathy training in personal relationships to foster
empathic listening and mutual understanding.
Empathy and Professional Development
Kevin discusses the
importance of empathy in professional development, including the
need for empathy training in educational institutions.
Edwin and Kevin agree on
the need for empathy training in professional development programs
to foster empathic listening and mutual understanding.
The conversation
highlights the challenges of fostering empathy in professional
settings and the importance of empathy training in promoting
professional development.
Kevin shares his vision of
an empathy movement to promote empathy as a core cultural value and
the potential impact of empathy on professional development.
Zoom Meeting summary for Edwin Rutsch's Personal
Meeting Room (04/22/2025)
Quick recap
Edwin and Kevin discussed the concept of empathy, its potential
manipulation by ideological extremists, and its role in fostering
dialogue and understanding. They also explored the importance of empathy
in bridging social and political divides, and the need for a more
nuanced understanding of empathy to avoid its misuse. The discussion
concluded with the agreement on the importance of empathy and active
listening in fostering mutual understanding and resolving conflicts, and
the potential benefits of implementing the empathy circle practice at
Northwestern University.
Next steps
• Kevin to organize an empathy circle at Northwestern University with
interested students and faculty.
• Edwin to send Kevin an email with potential dates for conducting a
practice empathy circle.
• Kevin to invite a colleague from his clinical counseling master's
program to participate in the practice empathy circle with Edwin.
• Kevin to incorporate empathy circles into his summer research
project, pending grant approval.
• Edwin to connect Kevin with the PhD student studying empathy for
potential collaboration.
• Kevin to refine his approach in writing about empathy, clarifying
distinctions between empathy, sympathy, and related concepts.
• Edwin to provide support and resources to Kevin for implementing
empathy circles at Northwestern.
Summary
Empathy's Dangers and Holistic Definition
Edwin and Kevin discussed the concept of empathy, with Kevin expressing
concerns about its manipulation and weaponization by ideological
extremists. Kevin argued that radical empathy can lead to a mandate for
ideological loyalty, particularly in college campuses. Edwin proposed a
holistic empathy definition model, which includes sensing into another
person's experience, self-empathy, imaginative empathy, and the
relationship aspect of empathy. The discussion aimed to clarify the
terms and explore the potential dangers of misusing empathy.
Radicalization of Empathy in Higher Education
Kevin expressed concerns about the radicalization of empathy in higher
education, particularly on college campuses. He argued that this
approach stifles critical thinking and dialogue, leading to a lack of
emotional reasoning and dishonesty among students. Kevin suggested that
this phenomenon is not only affecting students' relationships but also
their ability to trust others and navigate the world. He emphasized the
need for a more nuanced approach to empathy, one that allows for diverse
perspectives and open dialogue.
Empathy Circle for Dialogue and Understanding
Edwin and Kevin discussed the concept of empathy and its role in
fostering dialogue and understanding. They agreed that the term "radical
empathy" could be misleading, as it often refers to a lack of empathy.
Edwin proposed the idea of an "empathy circle" as a structured approach
to facilitate mutual understanding and listening. Kevin expressed
interest in implementing this approach on college campuses and agreed
that empathy is essential for mental health and moral development. They
also discussed the potential negative consequences of viewing people as
victims and the importance of creating a mutually listening environment
to avoid the drama triangle.
Empathy: Bridging Social and Political Divides
Edwin and Kevin discussed the importance of empathy in bridging social
and political divides. They agreed that empathy is not about feeling
sorry for others, but about actively listening and understanding their
experiences. They also acknowledged the challenges of distinguishing
empathy from sympathy and emotional identification. Kevin shared his
experiences with performing empathy and the need for more nuanced
understanding of empathy. They concluded that empathy could be a
powerful tool for bringing people together and overcoming differences,
but it requires a deeper understanding and practice.
Empathy Circle for Conflict Resolution
Kevin and Edwin discussed the importance of empathy and active listening
in fostering mutual understanding and resolving conflicts. Edwin shared
his experiences with the empathy circle practice, emphasizing its
effectiveness in creating a safe space for open dialogue and
understanding. Kevin expressed interest in implementing this practice at
Northwestern University, recognizing the potential benefits for his
research on anti-Semitism. They agreed to collaborate on holding an
empathy circle with their respective groups, with Edwin offering to
facilitate the process.
The Challenges of Maintaining Empathy in Polarizing
Situations
Edwin Rutsch and Kevin Waldman discuss the concept of
empathy, particularly the misuse of the term "radical empathy." Kevin,
a graduate student at Northwestern, highlights the disconnect between
taught and real empathy, leading to a national crisis. He plans to
conduct empathy circles involving conservative and liberal students to
foster mutual understanding. Edwin emphasizes the importance of Carl
Rogers' active listening and mutual empathy. They discuss the need for
empathy circles to address conflicts and improve communication,
particularly in therapeutic and academic settings. Kevin aims to
implement these circles at Northwestern, involving his research
partner and documenting the process.
Action Items
[ ] Organize an empathy circle event at Northwestern
University this fall
[ ] Reach out to Jody Jensen at Brigham Young
University to potentially collaborate on the empathy circle research
[ ] Set up a time for an empathy circle session
involving Kevin, his research partner Forest, and Edwin
Outline
Introduction and Background of Kevin Waldman
Edwin Rutsch introduces himself as the director of
the empathy center and mentions a previous conversation about Kevin
Waldman's article in the Chicago Tribune.
Kevin Waldman introduces himself, mentioning his
background in learning about empathy and his work at Northwestern
University.
Kevin discusses the disconnect between the reality
of empathy and its teaching on campuses, describing it as a national
crisis.
He highlights his work in gender research and his
involvement in the LGBT community, linking the lack of empathy to
trans violence.
Challenges in Defining and Teaching Empathy
Kevin expresses his frustration with the misuse of
the term "radical empathy" and his desire to write a follow-up
piece.
He discusses the major disconnect between the
reality of empathy and its teaching on campuses, describing it as
incorrect and harmful.
Kevin mentions his plans to conduct empathy circles
at Northwestern, involving both conservative and liberal students.
Edwin Rutsch explains the concept of empathy
circles, based on Carl Rogers' active listening process, and their
effectiveness in fostering mutual understanding.
Empathy Circles and Their Effectiveness
Edwin describes the empathy circle process,
including timed limits for speaking and reflecting back
understanding.
He shares examples of empathy circles at political
rallies, where participants listened to each other and formed
connections.
Edwin emphasizes the importance of mutuality in
empathy, where both parties feel heard and understood.
Kevin discusses his struggles with the concept of
empathy in his professional and personal life, particularly in the
context of polarizing issues.
Challenges in Practicing Empathy in Therapy and
Academia
Kevin shares his experiences as a
therapist-in-training at Northwestern, where empathy is often
reduced to affirmation without understanding.
He discusses the difficulty of having meaningful
conversations with people who hold opposing views, using the example
of a friend who believes Charlie Kirk should be dead.
Kevin highlights the misuse of the term empathy in
academia, where it is often used to create chaos and anxiety rather
than foster understanding.
Edwin and Kevin discuss the need for a clearer
definition of empathy and the importance of mutual listening in
therapeutic and academic settings.
The Role of Empathy in Addressing Violence and
Polarization
Kevin expresses his frustration with the misuse of
empathy as a justification for violence, particularly in the context
of trans violence.
He discusses the need for a better understanding of
empathy and its role in addressing societal issues.
Edwin and Kevin discuss the importance of empathy
circles in bridging divides and fostering mutual understanding.
Kevin shares his plans to conduct empathy circles at
Northwestern, involving both students and faculty, to address these
issues.
The Importance of Mutuality in Empathy
Edwin emphasizes the importance of mutuality in
empathy, where both parties feel heard and understood.
He discusses the limitations of one-directional
empathy in therapy and the need for mutual empathy in relationships.
Kevin shares his experiences with empathy circles
and their effectiveness in fostering mutual understanding and
connection.
They discuss the potential for empathy circles to
address conflicts and foster positive relationships in various
settings.
The Role of Empathy in Conflict Resolution
Edwin explains the restorative empathy circle
process, which involves bringing all parties in a conflict together
to listen and understand each other.
He shares examples of restorative empathy circles in
conflict mediation and their effectiveness in resolving conflicts.
Kevin discusses the potential for empathy circles to
address conflicts on campuses and in other settings.
They discuss the importance of having a structured
process for empathy circles to ensure effective communication and
understanding.
The Need for Empathy in Therapeutic Settings
Kevin discusses the limitations of current
therapeutic models in addressing empathy and the need for a more
mutual approach.
Edwin emphasizes the importance of mutual empathy in
therapeutic settings, where clients learn empathy skills to improve
their relationships.
They discuss the potential for empathy circles to
serve as an alternative to traditional therapeutic models.
Kevin shares his plans to incorporate empathy
circles into his therapeutic practice to foster mutual understanding
and connection.
The Impact of Social Media on Empathy
Kevin discusses the negative impact of social media
on empathy, where people are often isolated and unable to
communicate effectively.
He shares his concerns about the psychological toll
of social media on young people and the need for more meaningful
communication.
Edwin and Kevin discuss the importance of
face-to-face communication and empathy circles in addressing these
issues.
They emphasize the need for structured processes to
foster empathy and mutual understanding in both therapeutic and
social settings.
Plans for Empathy Circles at Northwestern
Kevin shares his plans to conduct empathy circles at
Northwestern, involving both students and faculty.
He discusses the importance of addressing the
misconceptions about empathy and fostering mutual understanding.
Edwin offers his support and resources for
conducting empathy circles, including materials and facilitation.
They discuss the potential for empathy circles to
address conflicts and foster positive relationships on campuses.
Conclusion and Next Steps
Kevin expresses his determination to conduct empathy
circles at Northwestern and the importance of addressing the
misconceptions about empathy.
Edwin offers his support and resources for
conducting empathy circles, including materials and facilitation.
They discuss the potential for empathy circles to
address conflicts and foster positive relationships on campuses.
Kevin plans to involve his research partner, Forest,
in conducting empathy circles and to document the experience for
broader impact.
Zoom Meeting Summary
Quick recap
Edwin and Kevin discussed the misuse and proper implementation of
empathy in society, particularly focusing on how it's taught and applied
in academic settings. They explored the concept of empathy circles as a
structured approach to foster dialogue and understanding between
opposing perspectives, with Edwin sharing his experience developing this
method and Kevin expressing interest in implementing it at Northwestern
University. The conversation concluded with plans to organize empathy
circles on campus and potential research opportunities, while addressing
the challenges of maintaining empathy in polarizing issues and the
importance of authentic listening.
Next steps
Kevin: Organize empathy
circles at Northwestern University between conservative and liberal
students in the fall
Edwin: Continue
developing and sharing his concept of "holistic empathy" to address
confusion around empathy definitions
Kevin: Research how to
conduct empathy circles properly for the Northwestern initiative
Edwin: Share more materials about empathy circles and their
application in polarized settings
Kevin: Write a follow-up article about what he has learned about
empathy since his Chicago Tribune piece
Kevin: Partner with K-12
researchers in the coming months on empathy-related research
Edwin: Provide Kevin with resources on holistic empathy to help
address his professional and personal challenges
Kevin: Consider how to
apply empathy circle techniques when communicating with acquaintances
who hold polarizing views
Kevin: Continue
exploring the concept of empathy as taught by Edwin for his
professional development as a therapist
Kevin: Incorporate
Edwin's empathy circle model in his therapeutic approach
Summary
Empathy's Role in Social Dialogue
Edwin and Kevin discussed the concept of empathy, particularly
addressing the misuse of the term "radical empathy" and its implications
in society. Kevin expressed his intention to write a follow-up article
on empathy, highlighting a disconnect between perceived and actual
empathy among students, which he believes contributes to national
crises, including trans violence. He proposed implementing empathy
circles at Northwestern University to foster dialogue between
conservative and liberal students, inspired by Edwin's teachings. Edwin
agreed on the importance of clarifying empathy's true meaning and
emphasized grounding it in the work of Kyle Rogers, a renowned clinical
psychologist.
Empathy Circle Concept Discussion
Edwin discussed his development of the empathy circle concept, which
involves mutual listening and understanding in small groups, and shared
examples of its effectiveness in reducing conflict between political
opponents. Kevin expressed concerns about how empathy is being taught
and used, particularly in academic settings, noting that the current
approach may contribute to division and mental health issues. They
agreed on the importance of teaching authentic empathy rather than using
it as a buzzword, with Kevin planning to bring Edwin's concept to his
campus to demonstrate practical empathy in action.
Exploring Holistic Empathy in Practice
Edwin and Kevin discussed the concept of holistic empathy, contrasting
it with traditional therapeutic approaches. Edwin emphasized the
importance of mutual listening and the development of empathy skills
that can be applied outside the therapy setting. They explored how
empathy can be weaponized in political discourse and how effective
listening is a skill that requires practice and patience. Kevin shared
his personal experience learning to listen as a therapist, highlighting
the challenges and misconceptions surrounding empathy.
Misunderstanding Empathy in Education
Kevin shared his experience of a heated debate in a class about empathy
and LGBT issues, where a professor validated a student's perspective of
pity rather than empathy. He expressed concern about how empathy is
being misinterpreted and taught, particularly in his program at
Northwestern, where he believes active listening and understanding are
being overlooked. Kevin and Edwin discussed the importance of
implementing empathy circles to address these issues and agreed that
empathy should involve listening to all perspectives without judgment.
They also touched on how empathy is often misunderstood or misused in
political contexts, with both sides failing to truly listen to each
other.
Empathy in Polarizing Dialogue
Kevin and Edwin discussed the challenges of maintaining empathy,
especially in polarizing issues like the Palestinian conflict, and the
importance of setting biases aside to foster dialogue. Kevin shared his
personal struggle with balancing his biases as a Jewish individual
working on campus surveys about the Middle East, while Edwin emphasized
the value of empathy circles as a tool for structured dialogue. They
also touched on the misuse of empathy by individuals to justify harmful
actions and the reluctance of some conservative critics to engage in
dialogue with Edwin. Kevin expressed gratitude for the learning
experience and noted the professional implications of engaging with
diverse perspectives, highlighting the business aspect of mental health
in the age of social media.
Empathy's Strategic Use and Misuse
Edwin and Kevin discussed the misuse and weaponization of empathy,
particularly by activists and polarizing figures. Kevin shared his
experience witnessing how empathy was used strategically at a conference
in Dearborn, Michigan, which motivated him to write an article on the
topic. Edwin emphasized the importance of empathy circles as a
structured approach to dialogue and conflict resolution, suggesting that
forming a community of like-minded individuals who value open listening
and constructive solutions could be a way forward. Kevin inquired about
the format of empathy circles, asking if questions and discussions were
allowed, to which Edwin confirmed that the circles are not debates but
involve active listening and understanding.
Empathy Circles Process Overview
Edwin explained the process of empathy circles, which involve small
groups of 4-7 people where participants take turns speaking, being
listened to, and reflecting back what they've heard. He described how
the process allows for free speech and deep listening, with a
facilitator managing time limits of up to 5 minutes per speaker. Kevin
expressed interest in implementing this approach, particularly in campus
settings, and discussed how misinterpretations of empathy have
contributed to recent violent incidents, noting that true empathy
requires active listening rather than just performing empathetic
actions.
Restorative Empathy Circles Implementation
Kevin and Edwin discussed implementing restorative empathy circles, with
Edwin explaining the process involves facilitated group discussions to
resolve conflicts through understanding and agreed actions. Kevin
expressed interest in using this approach with students to demonstrate
empathy firsthand, particularly given current campus tensions. They
agreed to keep the initial explanation minimal and let participants
experience empathy through discussion, with Kevin planning to start in a
classroom setting with a willing professor.
Empathy Circles for Community Healing
Edwin and Kevin discussed the power of empathy circles in fostering
trust and positive relationships, contrasting them with therapeutic
approaches that often lack mutuality. They explored how empathy circles
could potentially prevent violence and crime by creating meaningful
connections and understanding. Kevin shared his interest in conducting
research with inmates using empathy circles, and Edwin mentioned his
ongoing work with Jodi Jensen on empathy-related topics. They agreed to
stay in touch about potential collaborations, including involving Jodi
in future research.
Empathy Circles at Northwestern
Kevin and Edwin discussed plans to implement empathy circles at
Northwestern University, with Kevin planning to organize one in late
October. They agreed that empathy circles could help address campus
polarization and promote free speech by focusing on mutual listening
rather than analysis. Edwin offered to support Kevin by providing
materials and arranging for Jodi or another community member to
facilitate the circle. They also discussed the potential for Kevin to
write about the experience to encourage a positive snowball effect.
